A couple days ago I had a fun chat with our Euro FC who was wrapping things up for the night and getting ready to log off. We were discussing general Minmatar tactics--what system to take next, what systems the Amarr seemed to be pushing hard during that day, and what kind of coordination we would need between the two time zones. Afterwards, he said excitedly out of the blue, "we actually have to plan a war now, Susan. We've never had to do that before!" I could tell he was having a lot of fun.
One of the hardest challenges in going from a day-to-day pew for the sake of pew lifestyle, to fighting for a goal lifestyle, is that you always need to think beyond the moment. Sure, the battle in the here and now is fun, and good fights are why many of us are here. However, all the good fights now fit into the puzzle of a lot bigger purpose--one we have to take into consideration when we start making choices about where, when, and how we fight.
I've seen a lot of tactics, and trends start to occurr on both the Minmatar and Amarr sides--tactics that most of us would have never even considered using or thinking about before CCP announced their changes for Inferno.
Double Back - One of the most successful tactics I've seen the Amarr us I call the "Double-back." They may not even be doing it on purpose, but it has caused us to lose a number of fights, and is something we are quickly growing more aware of.
In the past, especially big fights usually meant pilots on both sides going their separate ways afterwards to take a break. In most cases, both sides needed time to reship, take a breather, reform and etc.
Instead of doing this lately, the Amarr have occasionally hit us a second time immediately after a major fight--completely taking us unaware. Usually people are idly picking up loot from the last battle, or half the fleet is reshipping or getting ammo--chaos usually ensues, and several of us are picked off before the rest can get out, or get organized.
Systems - Other tactics emerging on both sides are choices as to what systems to take. Before sovereignty had a purpose, what order or choices you made in what systems you took was not really a necessary consideration. Now, it is.
Recently, the Amarr have been pushing hard for Kourmonen --a grave mistake in my opinion that might further cost them space. While taking a central location for the purpose gaining a foothold is a sound tactic, it isn't the 'right' one in this situation for several reasons:
1. Being a central location and critical to the Minmatar, we will fight for it tooth and nail --a lot more then other systems the Amarr would have chosen.
2. We have home court advantage. Many USTZ Minmatar live in Auga, Kourmonen, or Huola, making it one of the easiest 'pipes' for us to defend. Since the Amarr completely moved out, this is actually an advantage they essentially gave us before the war began.
The Amarr would have been better off moving to an out-of-the-way system within the warzone that they already owned, and fortifying --defending surrounding systems and not worrying about the 'primary' Minmatar systems where we were setting up bases.
The Minmatar would have had a harder time taking the system due to not being able to reship as quickly to adjust for different size plexes, any our numbers would be less strong as many people would not be as motivated attacking something so far away.
Then, come Inferno the Amarr would have been in an even better position, having a small group of systems that they could more easily defend --us not being able to dock in them.
Electronics - One of the other tactics I've noticed is the tactical use of electronics within plexes, especially ECM. At one point a couple nights ago, the Amarr had five blackbirds on field. This essentially caused us to concede one of the plexes to them, as there was really no way to get around it that we could ship into before the plex closed.
I think that as pilots begin to see how powerful different types of electronics can be toward an enemy --from ECM, to sensor dampening and tracking disrupting, we're going to see a lot more of it used on both sides.
Straight up DPS brawls are going to quickly become a thing of the past --especially now that fights are taking place in plexes that restrict ship sizes. This is actually to the advantage of the Amarr, as high DPS gank fleets has been a Minmatar signature tactic.
I'm sure that a lot more tactics and trends will emerge as time goes on. There are still a lot more good fights to be had --and a lot of time to see where all of our decisions lead us.
However, in the end, I think that changes to Faction War come Inferno will make better PVPers out of us all.
#1 sounds like something out of null-sec. So does the ECM thing, ie bring overwhelming amounts of it. Not to say FW will turn into null, I don't think it's really possible, even with the ability to no longer dock at stations, but some tactics or ideas seem to be bleeding over.
ReplyDeleteTactics, in general, are not really tied to any region of space. Variations of them are used everywhere. Saying that tactic X is a null-sec tactic because you've seen people in null-sec use it, would be like saying drakes are a nullsec ship because you've seen massive fleets of them in nullsec....
DeleteThe minute bubbles and bombs come into play, I'll hop on the "FW is becoming Null" wagon.
DeleteIn my experience, nullsec doesn't revolve around the use of overwhelming quantities of ECM. Nullsec small-gang warfare does, admittedly, lean pretty heavily on falcons and ECM drones - not going to deny that. But from what I've seen (feel free to correct me if you've got evidence to the contrary), the large- and medium-scale fights in nullsec - and by medium I mean ~50 or more people - typically don't lean on it so much, simply because it's more difficult to coordinate that many falcons and ECM drones than it is to actually FC a fleet.
DeleteWhat you consider medium I consider large for a faction war fight. ECM tends to give way when you get really big and then you just go for timing alpha before reps can be applied etc.
DeleteWhen faction war was just about good fights few brought lots of blackbirds because its hard to find fights that way. But when you want to hold a plex because holding the plex is more important than a good fight, you can easilly see their advantage. 2 black birds can pretty easily completely jam out 4 cruisers and likely a 5th.
But it does take allot of coodination between the ecm pilots which is really distinct from what the fc is calling as primary. Once you get over 50 plus people calling out who is jamming whom can get pretty hard. So its just easier to turn to blap ships. But that is just my opinion and I really don't have much experience in this.
-Cearain
One thing I'm wondering about is what if one side just stops fighting for some reason. What happens then? This isn't a troll just idle curiosity.
ReplyDeleteKeep up the posts, you make FW sound fun.
I think it won't happen, any more than 'what if everyone stopped mining' or 'what if everyone left null'. The more people leave, the more valuable e.g. amarr FW LP store stuff will become, and thus the more people will join to reap the profits / rewards. It seems to be designed to be a typical supply/demand cycle that will get people in on pure economics if nothing else. I know I've recently noticed a lot of typical highsec industrial / missioning corps considering joining FW for the first time. I think many of them will be surprised by what they find in terms of the difficulty, but some of them will stay.
DeleteOf course that might not result in optimal GoodFites, as the people there for economics will likely be running risk vs reward calculations for every plex assault and will bail out of a lot of potentially even fights, but we'll see. Non-blue ships is non-blue ships, ultimately, and fites will be had.
K8
Indeed. I keep hoping I'll find fleets of carebears who hopped on the FW train for some LP/ISK goodness. Carebears are squishy.
Deleteyeah that's a good point. If the LP rewards on one side become smaller, then the unique items those LPs buy will go up in price.
DeleteIt is funny. The other night, during our push for Kourm, I asked my corp, "Why Kourm?" I had other systems in mind. I figured, even if we took Kourm, we wouldn't be able to hold it. It is funny that I find Susan and I agreeing yet again. WTF?
ReplyDeleteTruth is, decisions about where to attack are difficult to make, largely because we all seem to enjoy corp autonomy to a degree, and getting all on the same page may be a challenge.
At any rate, yes, tactics are changing. Perhaps fights will be more tactically diverse in the future.
As I have been saying for the past few weeks: Amarr, start working together in terms of theory-crafting, planning your strategy, taking target systems across TZ, etc! (:
DeleteI don't feel you guys are in a position to tell anyone anything, honestly.
Delete...
DeleteWhat? You mad bro? "...getting all on the same page may be a challenge." Yeah, only you are allowed to say that, my bad, I forgot man, honest.
If you hadn't noticed, I've only ever been supportive of the Amarr and their efforts. I remember when Minmmatar was on the losing side. Its not like we don't know what its like. Stop feeling sad and feel awesome instead.
Sorry. Gut reaction in response to all the "We are lions" minmatar > amarr crap I have read lately.
DeleteAlthough, a father can call his kid a tard. If someone else calls his kid a tard, he gets defensive.
I still <3 you.
Deleteweird. you're describing doing things that i'm already aware of in EUNI with a little over two weeks in the game. it sounds like FW pilots were, well lets just say, playing in a primitive manner.
ReplyDeleteYes and no.
DeleteFW pilots fought mainly for fun. The goal was to bring a fleet the other side would fight and get good fights. So you would ship down to match or ask them to.
Now they are actually fighting rather than playing. Individually FW has some good FC's and good pilots. But the fighting to win thing is new.
Signed
0.0 Pilot looking forward to going back to FW.
C, EUNI is much better than us primitives. Please bring your blobs around more often, it is always fun fighting them.
DeleteThe use of diverse tactics is not really new. It is just more common now. Amarr have made use of BLOPS and hit and run methods for a while, but often against null-sec interlopers (PL and TEST mostly).
ReplyDelete16 comments largely without any rage. Wtf is going on? Did I stumble on the carebear blog?
ReplyDeleteAlso omggaldstartedablog http://onemanblob.blogspot.com/
Nice blog I am glad you are actually discussing some tactics.
ReplyDeleteAs far as taking any systems, I have to say we tried that a few times and found the mechanics are bugged. Has ccp fixed the bugs or are we likely to plex for hours on end just to find out we can't cap a system due to a bug?
Its hard to believe CCP is really committed to faction war when bugs which have been spelled out for months are still not fixed and minmatar are about to cash in on their exploitation of them.
I know you are against a reset, I am too. But what about holding off on the consequences until each side has at least a week of bug free play where it only takes 7 hours to cap a system instead of 40 hours? I know you are pro-minmatar and leaving the bugs in right until the inferno expansion (and even after) helps insure your victory. But really can we not agree that both sides should have some sort of opportunity to cap plexes, before the rules radically change?
As far as actual tactics I agree you minmatar could stand to gain from copying amarrian strategies, instead of just using your number advantages. Nothing really new there.
-Cearain
What bugs bro?
DeleteThe only one I can think of is the Cloaky-in-the-plex=not-respawn bug, but besides that...? I'm not an avid PLEXAR like my Eurobros, but I haven't heard of any system-breaking bugs besides the cloaky one, which is admittedly super ghey.
DeleteThe cloaky one. There does seem to be another one where the plex won't close but I am mainly refering to the cloaky one.
ReplyDeleteCearain
I don't know of any minmtar taking advantage of the cloaky bug either. not more than any amarr that might be doing it, I don't know. Are you really suggesting that the mimatar are taking systems purely by exploiting the cloaky no respawn bug and the amarr are not capable of doing that too?
ReplyDeleteI have run some plexes in the last week or two. Not a single pilot I have seen was in a cloaky ship. I've personally never witnessed anyone exploit that bug. Not that I am some sort of large sample, nor am I suggesting that no minmatar ever does that. I'm sure some do. But I am also sure that some amarr take advantage of it. I do know that plenty of minmatar plexing is done with out any cloaky anything, just running timers, killing the easy to kill faction rats or speed tanking them in one ship while another sits the button and never shooting anything. Pretty normal stuff, and no exploits at all needed to take a system in a night.
The plex not closing when the timer runs out buggers everyone, but it's not too common i guess.
So, to recap, I take issue with you claiming the minmatar have some sort of unfair advantage in taking systems right now simply because a well known bug exists. Minmatar and Amarr have the same oppertunities to exploit the bug for one. And secondly, I have not ever seen anyone use this bug. Avoiding respawns by cloaking is just not very useful. Two people can easily take any plex in rifters if there is no opposition. Heck my jag can solo medium plexes just orbiting with an ab. A fancy exploit that makes a really easy task slightly easier is not worth much, and I dare say cannot be affecting the outcome of the war substantially.
Same oppotunity to exploit the bug? Are you saying we should have been doing this exploit all along too?
DeleteI, of course, can't say how often it was used. I know it wasn't used all the time by minmatar, because we were able to flip some systems before we got tired of getting burned by this bug. But I know it was used by minmatar. Our corp did some plexing ops and ran into it a few nights after doing several hours of plexing. I have noticed that sometimes the plexes don't respawn myself in certain key systems.
After we wasted time and got burned a few times we just stopped doing any heavy plexing ops. This bug was reported to ccp and they haven't taken any action. Instead we got and are still getting the run around. Now they are going to solidify the results that came from people using this exploit.
Are amarr doing it too? I don't know. Sasawong or other minmatar who do allot of plexing may know. The bug itself pevents new plexes from spawning so it favors the side with more system to begin with. Also if Amarr were using this bug comprehensively minmatar would not have been able to take systems.
But who did it more is beside the point.
1) CCP should give both sides some opportunity to fight for plexes when exploits don't make it impossible to cap systems, before they implement the inferno rules that make it much much harder to flip a system. Not only will we no longer be able to dock in a system but it will take 5xs as long to flip a system.
On this point you can either agree or disagree but I know minmatar have benefitted from this bug and that has helped them get a huge advantage leading into inferno. What is it 17 systems to 53? I would think we would all agree that, if we are not going to do a reset for this reason, then both sides should have a chance to at least play this game in an unbroken state before ccp changes the rules to the winning teams favor. Do you not agree?
2) CCP has known about this for months.(probably much longer) They even acknowledged it in an eve-o thread that was opened a month ago. (it was mentioned in earlier threads and petitioned well before that) I find it hard to believe their claims they are going to really iterate on faction war when they don't even take care of known bugs that break the mechanic that brings about all these serious internet spaceship consequences.
-Cearain
Ok, I have to apologize. Apparently I didn't even understand how the bug you are talking about worked. I've been around a long time, so to me that is an indication that knowledge and therefor use of this bug isn't really wide spread. Clearly, I have never been in a fleet where someone said or was ordered to sit cloaky in a plex so it never despawns and a new plex will not spawn.
DeleteAre you also saying that CCP does know about how this works and had declared it an exploit, asking people to not do it, yet does not police their policy?
If so, then it sounds like a relatively small number of minmatar have chosen to set cloaky alts in contested systems' plexes so more plexes wont spawn there. I guess I want to suggest that it is a small group who might do that, not a Minmatar as a whole. I suppose you can say that it dosen't matter how many do it if it keeps amarr from taking systems.
I still question this whole premmiss, however. The idea that an exploit or tactic exists that will prevent the enemy from taking a system and not a single amarr anywhere was willing or capable of doing it ever? I don't know, but it sounds like a 'we play fair and you don't' kind of argument and I have a hard time believe that the only people willing to use this bug to protect a system are minmatar. If it is so effective at keeping systems from turning and CCP does not police it at all, I just don't believe all 4 factions would not be using it. Amarr held many more systems in the past then they do now. It could have been advantageous. I know you don't speak for all amarr any more than I speak for all minmatar but you really think that 0 amarr milita pilots are willing to use an exploit to gain an advantage and many* minmatar militia pilots are? I guess sasawong could tell us better how often he runs into the same issue. No one runs more plexes than he does. Would you be surprised if he told us that yes, he does run into that too, and has to go work on a different system until the cloaky is gone, but he keeps at it anyway?
I know plexes don't disappear as long as someone is in them or at the gate, cloaked or not. Is it possible that this isn't really even an exploit? I mean, CCP made them not despawn while occupied... I guess since you call it an exploit CCP has come out and said that it is broken, they want to fix it, and in the mean time, no one should use it to gain an advangtage? Or did they just say they are aware of the issue and leave it at that?
I am thinking of the last true exploit I encountered. A few months back, the 'Tics were camping Oso gate and had about 60 or so shuttles jettisoned around the gate to lag out people jumping into them. This is a known exploit. CCP dosen't have a way to stop people from doing it, but if you petition it, like I did, they will get rid of the shuttles. And so they did. Within minutes of the petition being sent in, and with not a word in local or anything, the shuttles were instantly blown up and the wrecks vanished all at once. CCP was quick to stop the exploit, is my point.
So I guess I would think that if this cloaky issue is a true exploit that CCP means for people to not do, they would quickly and immediately remove the cloaky ship or even blow it up! The fact that you say CCP does nothing when petitioned makes me think that it is not an exploit but simply a game mechanic that is not ideal, CCP wants to change, but have not changed yet. And therefor something people are free to do. I don't know if that is the case, just thinking about it.
So, you asked at the beginning of your post if I meant that the Amarr should have been using this exploit all along, too. There is a two part answer, of course. If it is a real exploit then no one should use it, and CCP should intervene quickly to stop someone who is using it, as they do with other exploits. If CCP does not stop people from doing it, or it is not actually an exploit and simply a bad mechanic that will probably get changed as some point, then yes, absolutly, the Amarr should have been using it to aid in the defense of their space. Not using a tool at your disposal would just be silly. Now, if it is a true exploit, yet CCP does not stop it from being used when petitioned for some reason, then I guess no one SHOULD use it, but since there is no penalty, it seems to me that plenty of people on both sides WOULD use it. Kind of like speeding in your car. You are not SUPPOSED to go over the speed limit, but since no one ever gets punished for going 5 over, almost everyone does it. The tiny minority that never speeds may be complaining about all those other people doing 5 over and how they are breaking the law, but that doesn't mean they speeding will stop.
DeleteSo, yeah, I don't know the answer to this.
Urik
ReplyDeleteHere is what CCP has said about the bug:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1159172#post1159172
I think its pretty clear they explained it is an exploit. As you can see from this thread and others before it this was a well known problem that was never fixed for some unkown reason.
The only thing I know is myself and others in my corp were frustrated by people in minmatar doing this and didn't really see the point of trying to flip a system anymore. I still do occassional plexing for a fight but my corp stopped doing major ops for these plexes after we/they (mostly they) got burned after doing hours of plexing a few times.
Here is my post pleading with ccp to fix this bug because it is making people decide not to do faction war plexing anymore in that same thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1218930#post1218930
There were other posts asking this as well.
Who did this more or whatever I don't know. But I think the neglect that CCP has given this issue has pretty much poisoned the well. I am not saying that they should do a complete reset because I appreciate that many on minmatar did allot of plexing. But at the very least ccp should have given both sides an opportunity to plex bug free before they etch the current state based on this exploited system into stone.
I really have no idea if anyone from amarr ever used this bug. Again I have no reason to doubt minmatar plexers if they say this bug was used. I have no reason to doubt them if they say amarr never used this bug. I really don't know.
I just think that it is wrong for ccp to ignore this exploit that was well known and complained about and just put a bunch of consequences on top of their buggy system.
But really I'm not really interested in this "stepping stone to null sec" system. So I don't really care. If this bug was causing people to lose sov in null sec ccp would have been on it and fixed it in 2 hours. But we are not null sec we are riding with the training wheels for null sec so they don't care. IMO CCP's attitude toward fw makes anyone who cares about faction war look silly.
Cearain
fair enough. CCP not fixing a bug and not responding to pettions of a bug is bad all the way around. perhaps making concequences for FW will cause CCP to treat the bugs in it more seriously because it will actually affect players. where as in the old/current system, if you can't take a system, well at the end of the day it dosen't matter in anyway. too bad tho, if that's the case, that a bug has to really hurt players before it will be addressed.... and that's assuming CCP will fix it.
ReplyDeleteYeah it does matter. Because they are not going to do a reset.
Delete-Cearain